04/03/2019 at 2:15 pm #85981
William may know the answer to this one! Out of control and violent students who often assault teachers and fellow students are ‘punished’ by being suspended from school for a week or two. Just how is this a punishment when the kids don’t want to be there anyway?? Seems more like a reward for their behaviour to me.04/03/2019 at 4:30 pm #85982
Seems as though we are now back to front these days, compared with the days that many of us (girls also)who got the cane for the writing in one’s Exercise Book, if the writing didn’t meet the Teacher’s approval.
One day I got the cane for telling the Truth, I was the only one in the class who did, and the only one caned. In this case, it was a nun, she stood outside the room which had louvered shutters, where she could see & hear everything that went on in the class room. As soon as the nun entered the room, she said, “Stand up those who were talking when I was out side “Of course every kid in that class room had been talking, but I was the only one who stood up, also the only one who was caned. I was 7 years old & when we went outside at little lunch, my fingers were bruised & swollen. In those days, you didn’t think to tell your Mother, because you would get into trouble for misbehaving, but had I told my mother about getting the cane for being the only one telling the truth, she would have been against that. I’m pleased now that the children don’t get caned, but need to be respectful to their Teachers ,also in the homes from which the children come, are best taught by example!04/03/2019 at 5:41 pm #85983
Thank you Abirdo and Tulip.
You certainly set me thinking.
But I plead the ‘schultz’ defence. ‘I know nozzink’
However, I will drag up a few basic ideas, and hope these ideas might lead others to work out what to do.
Please excuse the inadequateness of my deliberations.
Firstly, ‘punishment’ is a waste of time.
It is more likely to cause resentment in those you ‘punish’, rather than bring them an epiphany of understanding.
It can cause their trust to falter. It also shows the punisher(s) as cruel and vindictive.
I leaned towards society’s attitude when I first had children.
It was ‘taught’ to me by those around me as the best way to handle children.
‘Spare the rod, and spoil the child’ they would say.
I knew no better right then.
But almost immediately I came to realise that that approach was a whole lot of stupid nonsense, ‘dreamt up’ by those who have no time to think.
I dispensed with it forthwith.
Surprisingly, all my children grew up sturdy and resolved, without the need for punishment along the way.
They were never a problem in school. Quite the opposite.
Now they are, one and all, progressive, resilient, responsible, and, might it be said, worthwhile additions to our society.
I know that is my own view, but I hope you will allow a father the right to it.
As a parent, I did what I could to ensure my own children, and also my grandchildren, had a happy and secure childhood.
I am indeed fortunate that, in spite of my feeble effort, they turned out as they did.
When there are ‘out of control and violent’ students at a school, staff have no option but to separate those students from the rest.
This is what they have done?
The parents, and indirectly society in general, now have the burden of finding out why those disruptive students are as they are, and trying to turn the clock back to when they were less so.
I would hope that responsible parents would rise to meet the challenge of dealing with their less than amenable offspring.
My own view is that problem students should not return to school until it is clear they will no longer be disruptive.
Setting a time of two weeks or similar is absurd.
Reason and re-education are the only tools likely to be effective in the short term.
Combined with the minimum physical effort needed to ‘keep the peace’.
I think these ‘situations’ illustrate that not all persons are the same, and that some students are not suited to traditional schooling.
They need something different. Society needs to embrace this view to a greater degree?
Even when I went to high school, there were different classes.
Standard style, and classes with a different syllabus for students contemplating a trade.
So the glimmering of this idea of different education existed even then.
I have no definitive idea, no magic potion, which could be used to deal with these ‘troublesome’ situations.
My only strong thought is that disruptive students should be taught the truth about themselves, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth: and that this should be taught vigorously, and in no uncertain manner as well!
They must come to realise they are telling themselves lies about life.
This needs to be done in a CALM and thoughtful manner, so they are more receptive to this new view of who they are and what they are.
When these approaches don’t work, a student is likely to spend a lot of his adult life in a ‘separate world’, easily identified by its many locks and bolts.
But we should do all we can, peacefully, to redirect their abilities in to productive channels.
We don’t want paraphrased what the little boy was advising his father; ‘ya gonna need a bigger boat’.
We don’t want to have said to us; ‘ya gonna need a bigger jail’.
For the future, one might hope that disruptive students would fall ‘genuinely in love’ later in life, and that this might change their outlook.
Having children of their own could well bring about the ‘epiphany of understanding’ they need, as their instinctive love for those children forces them to re-evaluate their personal standards.
No one seems to have the one true answer to behavioural problems.
But if we all keep throwing ideas in to the ‘pot’, a broth of understanding might well ensue?04/03/2019 at 6:51 pm #85984
Today here is HOT.
Not so much temperature-wise.
But when I walk outside, I note there is a light wind from approximately the south.
The ‘breath’ of this wind gives me an idea of how it would be to walk in to a hot oven.
So in the above post, I will plead not only the ‘schultz’ defence, but also the defence of ‘heat stress’.
Thank you.05/03/2019 at 4:00 pm #85986
William … were you a teacher? Public/Private?
And can you offer some illustrations based on your direct experiences? Together with when/generally where that may have been, and the school’s response compared to your own?
All interesting, if from the horse’s mouth.05/03/2019 at 5:54 pm #85988
Goodness gracious me, as my grandmother was wont to say.
I have not had such ‘third degree’ since my children and grand children were small.
Except of course from my pseudo great-grand-children, the little local girls who have ‘adopted’ me.
They are bossy and demanding, and go from laughter to tears and laughter again, all in an instant.
Very refreshing young misses. I enjoy devising passtimes for them.
For my part, I come from a teaching family.
A long line of teachers stretching back to when they were called otherwise.
School master for example.
So there were teachers, and more teachers, and a sprinkling of lawyers and engineers too, as my grandmother was often moved to point out.
I must be the black sheep of the family though.
Indolence is my middle name.
I have done some formal teaching it is true, but not all that much.
I decided I was better suited to other pursuits, and did those successfully instead.
The only significant memories I have, that might be relevant for you Jen, are about other children when I myself was at school.
I was about ten. Primary school.
A boy came to the school, from another country, and he was a bit odd and abrasive.
Looking back, I can see that he was a disturbing influence, and almost vicious in things he did to other pupils.
He was only there for a few weeks, then he disappeared from our ranks.
I don’t think anyone missed him.
I am assuming now that he was removed from our school due to complaints about his behaviour?
Then when I was at high school, there was a young man who would stand up to teachers, toe to toe, and face to face, and give as good as he got. A strange character, somewhat likeable really, but definitely ‘different’. I didn’t see any real harm in him.
I heard about twenty years later that he committed suicide. Sad really. I am sure he had many good qualities.
I think he is one of those who would have benefitted greatly from some other form of schooling.
Everybody seems to have their own ‘philosophy’ of life, based on what they see as truthful or real?
My own is based on truthful principles, as far as I can establish them.
Know yourself as well as you can and see yourself as others see you, the doctrine expressed by Socrates, and many others.
Realise that life is all about survival, and all the things needed to do that successfully.
Expand on these ideas, and use them to understand the world around you.
That is what I do. It seems to work for me. It brings to me calmness and purpose.
It allows me to understand and appreciate how others are thinking.
But sometimes, when I am watching a discussion on tv, I wish I could jump up on stage and put them straight.
Their thinking can get so convoluted, that I am sure they don’t understand themselves what they are trying to say.
I would like to cut through the $#!$% and just tell them what is what.
I hope in all of the above there are a few gems of wisdom, or revealing thoughts, which will suffice to answer your query Jen.
Like Ronnie Barker, I am open all hours.
Which means my thinking proceeds almost non-stop.
I think I have said enough for this year?
I will now retire from the limelight, and go look for broken tiles on the roof.
One very final thought.
There was a man who contributed weekly (I think) to radio, with an assessment of current events.
His segment was called ‘Letter from America’. (Alistair Cooke?)
I think I should rename my lengthy contributions, ‘Letters to Greypath’?05/03/2019 at 10:19 pm #85989
Thanks William. All a good read. Sad about the boy from your high school. Happens so much these days too.06/03/2019 at 11:47 am #85990
Mmmm having read all of these interesting posts Makes me think my schooling was fairly boring, although I do remember the leather strap being used or the ruler once on my out stretched hand, but for what ? no idea now, but I certainly wasn’t a goodie two shoes. I got into trouble after school always being late home mostly playing in the park with school friends. My four children have all passed through the ranks ,good well adjusted adults never any need for punishment or not that I am aware, ( but at home may have been a wee bit different) But I do think these days schooling is a lot different from the forties/fifties (for me) later on for our boys and girl. Our grand children all seem to have also passed through the ranks with no problems BUT I do think a lot of children these days are a problem don’t know if its the lack of discipline at home . I see lots of them at times, often down the street after school and I think some of the parents would be appalled if they could see or hear the way these kids speak and behave.
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